'Replies from Christians'

6.  Pete Hodge

4th December, 2005

(Continued from page 255)


Re: Heresy on the web

I was interested in some of your comments on your webpage - especially about Rhiwbina Baptist Church which I am a member. Also interested in your comments on the Olive branch - which also I am very involved with. It would be interesting to see what grounds you have for your statements.

Look forward to your reply

Sincerely

Pete Hodge


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22nd December, 2005 - TCE replies:


Dear Pete

thank you for your enquiry.

In line with our recent statement on e-mail communications, we will limit our reply to very brief statements.

Presuming you refer to the comments on page 8 & 14, then the facts are self-evident:

the historical facts show that Rhiwbina embraced Toronto and its associated errors (Deuteronomy 13:3; Matthew 18:7; Luke 17:1; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Peter 2:1);

Biblical Christians in the fellowship objected and, being in the minority (which also speaks volumes), correctly followed Biblical admonitions (1 Corinthians 11:19; 2 Corinthians 6:17) when forced to separate themselves rather than accept error;

whenever error is embraced rather than following the Word of God, the witness of the believer and the body is damaged - and 'innocent' people may be stumbled or die (Joshua 9v3-24; Numbers 27:21; 2 Samuel 21v1-6; Joshua 10:6; 1 Samuel 21:11-15; Galatians 2:11-14; cf. Acts 11:19-26; 15:1-29; 21:18ff.);

books by Joyner and Deere mentioned on these pages, replete with ludicrous 'prophecies' and incorrect interpretation of prophecy, were purchased in the Olive Branch after people in Cardiff churches rhapsodised over their content;

examination of the books confirmed the seriousness of allowing error to mingle with truth, whether in a book shop ostensibly crammed with thoroughly Biblical material, from the pulpit, or from any other source;

how can Christians ignore such error, just because they promulgate from churches we, or our friends, fellowship in?;

finally, in these overall circumstances should we follow Matthew 18:15-17, as some may think? We have dealt thoroughly with the inappropriateness of this argument, and others, on our pages;

In conclusion, does Rhiwbina Baptist stand by the doctrinal stance taken some years ago, has the church repented, or has the leadership which led the fellowship into error departed, or a changed leadership rejected the former errors? If so, has re-conciliation with those who were driven out by their refusal to participate in error taken place?


In a similar manner, as an involved worker in the Olive Branch, does the bookshop policy remain unchanged? If definite, attestable changes have taken place we would write to that effect, just as we will change the record to show that the Wyndham Arcade bookshop, run by the Evangelical Movement of Wales, now carries a similar range of deceptive material. Joyce Meyer, Tommy Tenney, Tony Campolo, Rick Warren, etc., are now in there with the orthodox material and will deceive the ignorant and unstable! We don't believe any Christian can be happy with this situation.

Further, as we have stated in other places, it is a tragic fact that the Baptist Union itself has become everything that Spurgeon warned against, encouraging fellowship with serious error by embracing ecumenism with Rome and others of similar ilk, so that any church remaining within her folds is not simply guilty by association, which is dangerous, but, worse, by co-operation with deceivers.

If you hold that the beliefs of the church, and the book-shop policy, are Biblically wholesome and above reasonable reproach, we have nothing to discuss. And if the next stage in the embracing of the counterfeit is flirtation, or worse, with the 'Purpose Driven' errors of Rick Warren, replete with his co-operation with New Age supporter, Ken Blanchard, inaccurate handling of Scripture, and the evils of the United Nations, then we rest content that we have done our duty before our Saviour God.

Sincerely in Christ Jesus

TCE

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7.  Alan James
*****************************************************

12th January, 2006

Re: Rhiwbina Baptist Church


Hi

I am currently an Elder at Rhiwbina baptist Church, but I have been involved in leadership in the fellowship for a number of years. From the tone of your website I appreciate that you seek to be true to scripture.

I therefore find it surprising that you print allegations about people leaving the fellowship in Rhiwbina without checking your facts with the leadership of the church. I was under the impression that "accusing the brethren" was the work of the enemy. You clearly hold something against your brothers but have not had the integrity to speak to us.

Could I then invite you to substantiate your allegations with specific evidence - names, dates etc. I would be happy to meet you to discuss your views. I would assume that once you were able and willing to deal with facts you would also allow a statement from Rhiwbina Baptist Church to be placed on your website. Since this is common practice in the secular media surely we can expect Christians to at least adhere to similar standards?

Yours in His service

Alan James

*****************************************************

17th January, 2006 - TCE replies:

Re: Rhiwbina Baptist Church


Dear Alan

thank you for taking the time to express your point of view regarding our material.

As we have already made clear on our home page, we no longer give time or priority to answering all queries in depth.

However, in the interests of accuracy perhaps you could clarify where we '... print allegations about people leaving the fellowship in Rhiwbina ....' so that we can consider an appropriate reply?

Sincerely in Christ Jesus

TCE

*****************************************************

18th January, 2006 - Alan replies:

Re: Rhiwbina Baptist Church

Dear David

The issues arise from your response to Pete Hodge.

"Presuming you refer to the comments on page 8 & 14, then the facts are self-evident:"

t historical facts show that Rhiwbina embraced Toronto and its associated errors (Deuteronomy 13:3; Matthew 18:7; Luke 17:1; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Peter 2:1);

Could you detail exactly what you mean by this statement.

Biblical Christians in the fellowship objected and, being in the minority (which also speaks volumes), correctly followed Biblical admonitions (1 Corinthians 11:19; 2 Corinthians 6:17) when forced to separate themselves rather than accept error;

Who were the Christians; how did they express their objections, and how did they inform the leadership of their reasons for leaving?

Every blessing

Alan

*****************************************************

7th February, 2006 - Alan … :

Reminder

Hi David

I sent you the following message on th 18th January. Any chance of a response? I've become impatient with Christians who throw out accusations and make judgements in the absence of facts. Your failure to reply seems to suggest that you are unable to back up your assertions!

I liik forward to hearing from you.

Every blessing

Alan

*****************************************************

8th February, 2006 - TCE replies:

Re: Reminder

Dear Alan

as our home page clearly states: 'we will no longer respond to all communications from visitors for the immediately foreseeable future ... for the reasons given, we will be no longer respond to all queries.'

Although your communication gave us no good reason to respond, we found time to construct a reply while completing an article on Warrenism and would have mailed it to you in the next 24-hours. The rush of Cardiff churches to study the '
Purpose Driven' heresy is clearly more needy of a reply than your query - as we will elicit. We don't suppose you will believe this anyway but, even in the days when we replied to every e-mail, it took an average of 3-5 weeks to reply. This was another reason to suspend replies.

But then your follow-up mail arrived! Your suggestion that: 'I've become impatient with Christians who throw out accusations and make judgements in the absence of facts. Your failure to reply seems to suggest that you are unable to back up your assertions!' calls for some serious reflection on Proverbs (17v27-28, for example):

Prov 17:27 He who restrains his words has knowledge, And he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding. 28 Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; When he closes his lips, he is {considered} prudent (NASB).

Again, since we no longer give time or priority to answering all queries in depth, a few points will have to suffice:

As we surmised, your initial allegations against us were unfounded since we had not 'print[ed] allegations about people leaving the fellowship in Rhiwbina ...' at all, but merely commented in a private communication on the witness of former members which was strongly supported by the materials available in the Olive Branch - and the subsequent path being taken into more deception via Rick Warren.

Regarding your request for details we are certain that the statements are self-explanatory and we certainly do not choose to involve ourselves in 'straining gnats' (Matthew 23:24) - even if the section of the article referring to Rhiwbina had not been written many years ago! At best this would involve the word of mature believers against that of a leadership that is even now embracing the study of more error via Warren. Any church that has the time to consider such gnat straining as important is clearly in need of a return to New Testament teaching - actually involving all of the fellowship in real discipleship and evangelism. As we have made clear on our home page, that is one of the main thrusts of our website. If you seriously consider all the books available from the Olive Branch and the path into Warrenism are valid expressions of Christianity we certainly have nothing further to discuss anyway.

Embracing the deceptions of Toronto
et al (even if by merely participating, speaking approvingly of the movement and its leaders, taking a neutral position, or by making available material that supports the doctrines of deceivers) and the 'Purpose Driven' nonsense are altogether more serious than purporting to retrospectively investigate the details of people who left your church! This is an attitude reminiscent of The Church of England split over the question of women priests. The question was never, "Should we have women priests?" but, "Why should we have priests at all?" for the Bible makes it clear that all believers are priests (Revelation 1:6; 5:10; 20:6) - but never in a Roman/Anglican sense. So many Anglicans made a fuss over an un-Scriptural aspect of their sacramentalism yet, when the former Bishop of Durham, David Jenkins, denied the Virgin Birth and Christ's literal resurrection, rather than rise up in protest against this attack on the Word, the majority of the Church of England's bishops defended him - and the majority of the 'rank and file' quietly acquiesced and then slowly drifted away!

If you are really seriously concerned about the reasons why people left your church you will be able to supply us with details concerning everyone who has left in the recent past. After all, the Scriptural teaching is clear that shepherds care
this much for the one who is lost (Matthew 18:13). All you'll have to do to prove that you know the fate of your 'lost sheep' is to supply us with their surname, if common, or replace a few vowels if it is uncommon and therefore possibly recognisable, e.g. Navratilova could become N*vr*t*l*v*, and the privacy of the witness will thus be preserved. Of course, since you decided to make use of a private e-mail to Pete Hodge, you probably have no qualms about retaining confidentiality. But, since you appeal to the standards of the 'secular media' you will know that even they protect their sources whenever possible.

Is Rhiwbina, or any contemporary church, really bothered enough about
every person who ceases attendance to know, or even care too much, when and why individuals cease to attend. How many churches do you know who always go and seek the reason for people going absent?

Why is it that people write to us? The first reason is to justify themselves or their church/organisation/beliefs which they feel are under attack. Are you really going to pretend that there have never been divisions at your church? That would make your church truly exceptional. Sadly, the whole questioning process smacks of pride of the most elementary kind for, if only one person had left over doctrinal truth, it is perfectly possible in today's liberal and heretical atmosphere to find that the minority are doctrinally correct and the majority wrong - after all, the whole of the Baptist Union is wrong in accepting Rome through ecumenism. We also find the ridiculous contradiction of groups such as OAC producing 'Once A Catholic Always A Catholic?' tracts yet linking (ref. their website) to material that discusses ecumenism as if it was a valid move of the Spirit to join with Papal Rome which still pronounces Biblical 'saved by grace' to be anathema!

An abundance of experience in addressing the reason people cease church attendance, often lost completely from Christian discipleship or snapped up by cults, has proven the tragically apathetic culture in contemporary Christianity. We have documented some of these tragedies in detail on our pages - as well as the totally apathetic views of the leaders supposed shepherding or 'superintending' these travesties. Of course, if you have all the facts about your fellowship at your elbow you can easily prove us wrong by supplying all the details of past attendees. We would be very pleasantly surprised to learn that there is a church willing to go the extra mile out of love for the sheep. And let no one try and hide behind the 'we're not perfect' excuse (we have already dealt with the un-Scriptural nature of that tack on our pages).

Finally we have noted that you wrote ostensibly for the purpose of 'checking ... facts' concerning names, dates, and details but then, before these facts were even known or checked by you, accused us of being 'the accuser of the brethren'? If you had carried out any checks at all you will know that this accusation has been levelled at us before with no justification whatsoever, but merely out of malice because false teachings and divisive leadership were exposed. Then, as now, un-Scriptural accusations do not stand up to careful examination.

Your other accusation that we 'clearly hold something against ... brothers' and the inference that we lack 'integrity' shows you have already made your mind up without knowing all of the facts and also convinces us further that we have nothing to discuss. Instead of leaping to foolish conclusions why don't you try some genuine investigation into the errors embraced by Rick Warren's ministry?
Unless, indeed, you lack integrity.

Regarding your hope that we would 'allow a statement from Rhiwbina Baptist Church to be placed on [y]our website' we wonder what form such a statement could take? Something along these lines?:

'Regarding the deception widely known as the 'Toronto Blessing' which was continued through related deceptions, such as 'Pensacola' and 'Brownsville,' we can categorically state that the leadership of Rhiwbina Baptist Church has always warned that these were not in any way works of the Holy Spirit or 'revivals' and no member of our church, or invited speaker, has ever publicly spoken or written approvingly of these deceptions without either clear verbal or written warning of the un-Scriptural nature of these events being given by our leadership to every known hearer or reader. And our bookshop has never supplied any material that would support these heretics and false prophets.'

'Regarding the 'Purpose Driven' deception perpetrated through the false teacher Rick Warren, the leadership of Rhiwbina Baptist Church has wilfully taken upon itself to ignore Jesus' clear promise that the Holy Spirit would 'lead us into all truth' (John 16
v13) to study counterfeit methods which minimize the importance of sound doctrinal interpretation (2 Timothy 3v16; 4v3) of Scripture, resulting in seriously inaccurate and misleading beliefs using extreme paraphrasing and humanistic psychological principles, and in which none of the essential elements of the gospel - that man is a sinner under God's judgment, that Christ is God and man through Virgin Birth, that He paid the penalty for our sins, and that He was resurrected on the third day - is given (1 Corinthians 15v1-4), while essentials, such as holiness and Biblical separation from unbelievers, are considered less important than 'love' and 'unity,' and historical enemies of Christianity are quoted as authorities to support this flattering 'gospel' of self-esteem, self-love, and positive thinking - a 'gospel' that cannot save.

How did the contemporary Christian church sink so low that they offer spiritual meals of Rick Warren books, or some other psycho-babble 'Christian' garbage, rather than the study of the Scriptures? And why does it come as a shock to the pastor and deacons when those who at least remember when Scripture was studied and the praise of God based on that Word, rather than worldly entertainment, depart from the church to seek the Biblical church they once accepted as the norm?

The truth of the sufficiency of God's Word for 'all things that pertain unto life and godliness' (2 Peter 1
v3) is recognised by all orthodox, historical Christians. Bible-believing Christians should expect instruction and advice from those who have demonstrated that they are to be imitated because they possess a demonstrable relationship with God (Acts 20v28; 2 Thessalonians 3v7-9; Hebrews 13v7; 3 John 1v11). Their lives, ministries, and writings exhibit love and dedication to God demonstrated by faithful obedience to Him and belief and reliance on the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture. In another era the church was warned:

'This age of novelties would seem to have discovered spiritual power in brass bands and tambourines....The tendency of the time is towards bigness, parade, and show of power....Jesus said 'Preach the gospel to every creature.' But men are getting tired of the divine plan; they are going to be saved by the priest...by the music...by theatricals....Well, they may try these things...but nothing can ever come of the whole thing but utter disappointment and confusion. God dishonoured, the gospel travestied, hypocrites manufactured by the thousands, and the church dragged down to the level of the world.'
C.H. Spurgeon
The Church of God has gone into the entertainment business! People must be amused, and as the church needs the people's money, the church must supply the demand and meet the craving! How else are godless hypocrites to be held together? So the picture show and entertainment... take the place of the gospel address and the solemn worship of God. And, thus, Christless souls are lulled to sleep and made to feel 'religious' while gratifying every carnal desire under the sanction of the sham called the church! And the end? What an awakening [in eternity]!

H.A. Ironside

The following is another part of our new article. Warren admits: 'In this book I have passed on to you what others taught me about the purpose of life; now it's your duty to pass that on to others' (p. 309). If a historically recognised cult leader, such as the founder of the Mormons, Joseph Smith, urged believers to follow his discoveries we would be unsurprised. Believers are to disciple others in the faithful teachings of the Word of God - not the seriously inaccurate and misleading beliefs of an uninspired individual, such as Rick Warren. We are to follow the words of the New Testament apostles and prophets who were inspired to record the words of Scripture and commanded believers to 'teach others also' (2 Timothy 2v2) and to 'stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our (the inspired apostles') epistle' (2 Thessalonians 2v15). The Word of God makes it clear that it is sufficient to equip the believer 'for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works' (2 Timothy 3v16-17). The Bible is utterly sufficient and the sole source of teaching material used by pastors and teachers to train and disciple believers in the truths of Scripture. The Holy Spirit can inspire pastors and teachers in the contemporary church, but He will not cause any true believer to teach anything contrary to the Word of God. Since The Purpose Driven Life is not consistently faithful to God's Word it is certainly not inspired by the Holy Spirit and must therefore be rejected by discerning believers who seek to follow Christ and His Apostles.

It would be joyful indeed to hear that Rhiwbina and the Baptist Union had turned from participating in error to a pure proclamation of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. But we will not be holding our breath!

Sincerely in Christ Jesus

TCE

(Continued on page 257)

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