Subject: The article incorporating the mentioning of Mormonism
My name is Shelley, i'm an inactive member of the moromon church, or rather
the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints. I just wanted to say, it is
true that Smith the prophet used seer stones, but also recorded in the bible
is the breast-plate with seer stones that the jewish prophets used in the
It is possible to state that given the fact that i have seen many different
bibles, that people have also altered themselves scriptures, scriptures that
can vary differently in it's meaning from one person to another, also from
one bible to another, i would say that this is the word of man and his
understanding, rather than the word of god, as it does also say that god &
his word is a mystery, but that mystery can only be revealed by the holy
spirit, as the holy spirit is a voice of god, the mormons choose to listen
to this holy spirit to either confirm or deny what is written in the bible,
some of the bible is confirmed that is why they include the bible in thier
sacred texts. But having said that, the mormons ultimate reliance lies in
the confirmation in the holy spirit, this is to say they will follow
confirmation of what the holy spirit has told them what is gods word, not
the confirmation of what is man's word.
Also the description of the holy spirit in galatians 5: 22 ( i'm sure it's
that biblical scripture), where it describes the fruit of the spirit, being
joy, peace, temperence.....etc these are also in the spirit of the wiccan
religion, word for word!
It is best not to publisise or rant in persecution of religions, but just go
by what you believe in yourself, keep the peace and only leave these sorts
of things to a discussion and not an attack. Being lifes pupils can sure
surprise us, as well as teach us that all of us can be wrong at times.
26th April, 2005 - TCE replies:
You write: I just wanted to say, it is true that Smith the prophet used seer stones, but also recorded in the bible is the breast-plate with seer stones that the jewish prophets used in the old testament.'Familiar Spirit' of Mormonism
TCE: It is an irrefutable fact that Smith used 'seer stones' and other occultic divination means. Presumably the 'breast-plate' you refer to is the Urim and Thummin (although it was never called a 'breastplate') of the Old Testament. No Biblical description of their mode of use exists and there are only two references to them:
Ezr 2:63 (ASV) And the governor said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
Ne 7:65 (ASV) And the governor said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and Thummim.
So it was actually the priests who had the Urim and Thummin, not prophets. As we learn from 1 Samuel 9:9-19 (ASV):
(Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to inquire of God, thus he said, Come, and let us go to the seer; for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)...11 As they went up the ascent to the city, they found young maidens going out to draw water, and said unto them, Is the seer here?...18 Then Saul drew near to Samuel in the gate, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, where the seer's house is. 19 And Samuel answered Saul, and said, I am the seer; go up before me unto the high place, for ye shall eat with me to-day: and in the morning I will let thee go, and will tell thee all that is in thy heart.
References to 'seers' are found in 2 Samuel 24:11; 2 Kings 7:13; 1 & 2 Chronicles; Amos 7:12 - but nowhere do these 'seers' employ the Urim and Thummin, or any divination method. It is foolish to speculate beyond what we know and, since divination of any kind is forbidden in the Bible (see examples below), we can be certain that no true servant of the Lord would be employing divination of any kind. This is just one proof that Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
Anyone with a LATTER-DAY SAINTS background should be familiar with another of the LATTER-DAY SAINTS misuses of Scripture (Isaiah 29:4, 11):
And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.… And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed.
Isaiah's prophecy concerns Jerusalem, "the city where David dwelt" (v1). Portions of the prophecy were copied, nearly word for word, into the Book of Mormon (compare Isaiah 29:1-4 with 2 Nephi 26:15-17) so the LATTER-DAY SAINTS Church misapplies Isaiah's prophecy to the Nephite people, claiming they inhabited North America centuries ago. Isaiah tells the Jews that the prophetic vision had been sealed up to them like a sealed book, but this is taken out of context by the LATTER-DAY SAINTS and explained as a reference to the Book of Mormon, which had allegedly been hidden in the ground.
This Mormon misapplication of Isaiah's prophecy is most devastatingly clear in the reference to "a familiar spirit" in Isaiah 29:4. Mormon missionaries encourage those ignorant of true Bible-knowledge to read the Book of Mormon and to accept that it has "a familiar spirit" - meaning that the non-Mormon will find things that he is already familiar with, or accustomed to. Mormon author LeGrand Richards (in A Marvelous Work And A Wonder) states: "Now, obviously, the only way a dead people could speak 'out of the ground' or 'low out of the dust' would be by the written word, and this the people did through the Book of Mormon. Truly it has a familiar spirit, for it contains the words of the prophets of the God of Israel" (1979 edition, pp. 67-68). Richards (a member of the LATTER-DAY SAINTS Council of the Twelve Apostles) boasted that the Book of Mormon "has a familiar spirit" and that it was prophesied by Isaiah. But Richards was clearly utterly ignorant of the fact that, whenever the Bible speaks of "a familiar spirit," it refers to a demonic spirit ('a familiar') communicating through a witch or a spirit medium. In every case the one who has the familiar spirit is condemned by God in the Bible, e.g. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 includes "a consulter with familiar spirits" among the practices of spiritism (witchcraft) to be excluded from Israel:
When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord.
Consulting someone who had a familiar spirit was grounds for the divine judgment of death in the case of King Saul (1 Chron. 10:13):
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it.
Similarly, dealing with a familiar spirit was classified as evil in the case of King Manasseh (2 Chron. 33:6):
And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Joseph Smith had previously been tried in a New York court as a "glass-looker" who practiced "money digging" by means of divination. It should be no surprise to learn that the Book of Mormon has "a familiar spirit" about it, in the sense that Smith was a regular occultist who continued the practice in numerous ways, including smuggling occultic Masonic rituals into his temple ceremonies!
Here is a description of the divination method used to supposedly 'translate' the Book of Mormon:
I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man. (An Address to All Believers in Christ, David Whitmer, Richmond, Mo., 1887, p. 12)
Smith claimed that he was visited on September 21, 1823, by the angel Moroni, resurrected son of an ancient prophet-historian named Mormon who had written on gold plates quotations and abridgements of earlier writers Nephi, Jacob, Enos, et al. Before dying as the last of the Nephite people in A.D. 421, Moroni supposedly buried the golden plates in a stone vault on the Hill Cumorah between Palmyra and Manchester in western New York State. Smith claimed that the angel took him to the site in 1823 and let him unearth the stone vault and look into it, but did not allow him to remove the gold plates until 1827. Then, along with the plates, Smith was supposedly allowed to retrieve from the vault the Urim and Thummim, two stones set in silver bows, like eyeglasses, which enabled him to miraculously translate the "reformed Egyptian" characters written on the plates. After the translation work was completed the angel Moroni supposedly reappeared and took back the plates.
The beauty of Smith's scam is that, since the Bible does not describe the appearance or mode of use of the Urim and Thummin, he could make up whatever he liked and some gullible people would fall for his stories!
You write: It is possible to state that given the fact that i have seen many different bibles, that people have also altered themselves scriptures, scriptures that can vary differently in it's meaning from one person to another, also from one bible to another, i would say that this is the word of man and his understanding, rather than the word of god, as it does also say that god & his word is a mystery, but that mystery can only be revealed by the holy spirit, as the holy spirit is a voice of god, the mormons choose to listen to this holy spirit to either confirm or deny what is written in the bible, some of the bible is confirmed that is why they include the bible in thier sacred texts. But having said that, the mormons ultimate reliance lies in the confirmation in the holy spirit, this is to say they will follow confirmation of what the holy spirit has told them what is gods word, not the confirmation of what is man's word.
TCE: your claims are easily dismantled and proven to be nonsense! We challenge you to prove what you claim as a self-educating exercise, since we have already stated the case for Biblical inerrancy at: http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page52.html
It is impossible for you, or anyone else, to refute the claims for Biblical accuracy. The Mormon claims of corruption in the ancient texts are painfully easy to refute. It is Mormon error that persuades you that 'god & his word is a mystery ....', for the Bible is clear that God has revealed Himself through the Word of God - found only in the Bible - and sincere readers and believers in that Word will rely on the Holy Spirit to bring them into all truth (Acts 17:11; John 16:13-14). 1 Timothy 3:16 teaches:
'And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.'
Romans 16:25 also makes it clear that what was a mystery has been revealed in Christ Jesus:
'Now to him that is of power to stablish (strengthen) you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.' (cf. Ephesians 1:9; 3:4,9; 5:32; 6:19; Colossians 1:26)
It is perfectly clear that some, such as those who follow Smith's example and recommendations and believe they are listening to the Holy Spirit, will instead follow a counterfeit spirit - and thus be led to take heed to 'doctrine of demons' (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The tests of where the truth lies are found only in the accuracy of the Bible coupled with careful observations of the facts of history (Deuteronomy 13 &18:20-22; Acts 17:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22). The long list of theological, doctrinal, moral, and factual errors of Smith and his successors proves to anyone capable of rational thought that the Mormons are a cult led by false prophets who know nothing of the leading of the Holy Spirit. It is painfully easy to prove that this is so!
You write: Also the description of the holy spirit in galatians 5: 22 ( i'm sure it's that biblical scripture), where it describes the fruit of the spirit, being joy, peace, temperence.....etc these are also in the spirit of the wiccan religion, word for word!
TCE: Galatians 5:16-26 reads:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Verse 19-20 perfectly describe the life of Joseph Smith: he created a convenient 'revelation' of polygamy to slake his lust for women, hypocritically invented the 'Word of Wisdom' while drinking alcohol himself, sent the LDS after 'gods they had not known' (Deuteronomy 13), practiced witchcraft, had those in opposition to him killed, and his heresies led to wrath, strife etc.
Any Wiccan description bearing 'word for word', or even close, parallel to this passage in Galatians would need to be from a Wiccan manuscript of the same age as the oldest Greek New Testament manuscripts to prove anything at all! Why? Because any practitioner of 'Wicca' could have read the New Testament manuscripts and simply 'lifted' the material from that source! In case you decide to go on a wild goose chase after genuine, attested, accurate, 'ancient wiccan writings' we can assure you that they don't exist, any more than ancient druidic writings, or those of any other faith or beliefs (again, see our page 52)! So, again, you have no proof of anything. Don't let your LDS training in the art of accepting false claims fool you otherwise!
You write: It is best not to publisise or rant in persecution of religions, but just go by what you believe in yourself, keep the peace and only leave these sorts of things to a discussion and not an attack. Being lifes pupils can sure surprise us, as well as teach us that all of us can be wrong at times.
TCE: The Bible clearly tells us to cast off and reprove (expose!) the works of darkness:
Romans 13:12 - The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Ephesians 5:11 - And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
We also have many Biblical examples of heretics being exposed - see our page
'Paul's approach to discernment and correction was faultless. Peter and Barnabas weren't the only ones he admonished. To them we can add Hymenaeus, Philetus, Demas, Phygellus, Homogenes and Alexander (cf. 1 and 2 Timothy). The beloved John makes the readers of his third Epistle aware of the problems caused by Diotrephes. This follows the pattern of the Old Testament where we should note that all of the prophets, from Moses and Joshua onwards, were addressing error and named those who were erring - whether it was personal sin, such as David with Bathsheba (2 Samuel 12), or Micaiah prophesying defeat for wicked king Ahab (1 Kings 22) - or a letter from Elijah the prophet to wicked king Jehoram (2 Chronicles 21) in which God judged him...'
So we will always chose to follow God's way rather than the errors of mankind! Yes Shelley, being fallible men, we can all 'be wrong at times' - but the Word of God stands forever (Isaiah 40:8: 'The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever'; 1 Peter 1:25: '...but the word of the Lord stands forever')! As we have shown, it has dismantled all of your claims! Sadly, anyone thinking of the Word of God in the way Mormons have been trained to accept it, through the prism of the occultic methods of the false prophet, Joseph Smith, will quickly fall into the error of accepting any truth as 'God's truth,' even claiming that it can come from Wiccan teachings. But this should be no surprise to anyone - the same demonic spirits are behind the LDS and Wiccan teachings!
Sincerely in Christ Jesus
Next page: Shelley's reply
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