'Replies from Mormons'

1. Andrew Miller (cont.)

8th October, 2003

(Continued from page 373)

Polygamy (cont.)


How do modern Mormon leaders deal with the issue of polygamy? Simply read the manner in which president and prophet Gordon B. Hinckley dealt with the matter when polygamy was brought up by Larry King on his show (aired September 8, 1998 - 9:00 p.m. ET - go to
http://www.lds-mormon.com/lkl_00.shtml#polygamy for the full transcript):

Larry King: Now the big story raging in Utah - before we get back to morals and morals, is - the big story, if you don't know it, is polygamy in Utah; there's been major charges. The governor, Mike Leavitt, says that there are legal reasons why the state of Utah has not prosecuted alleged polygamists. Leavitt said plural marriage may be protected by the First Amendment. He is the great-great-grandson - is the governor - of a polygamist. First tell me about the church and polygamy. When it started it allowed it?

Gordon B. Hinckley: When our people came west they permitted it on a restricted scale.

Larry King: You could have a certain amount of...

Gordon B. Hinckley: The figures I have are from - between two percent and five percent of our people were involved in it. It was a very limited practice; carefully safeguarded. In 1890, that practice was discontinued. The president of the church, the man who occupied the position which I occupy today, went before the people, said he had, oh, prayed about it, worked on it, and had received from the Lord a revelation that it was time to stop, to discontinue it then. That's 118 years ago. It's behind us.

Larry King:
But when the word is mentioned, when you hear the word, you think Mormon, right?

Gordon B. Hinckley: You do it mistakenly. They have no connection with us whatever. They don't belong to the church. There are actually no Mormon fundamentalists.

Larry King: Are you surprised that there's, apparently, a lot of polygamy in Utah?

Gordon B. Hinckley: I have seen the thing grow somewhat. I don't know how much it is. I don't know how pervasive it is.

Larry King: Should there be arrests?

Gordon B. Hinckley: It's matter of civil procedure. The church can't do anything. We have no authority in this matter, none whatever.

Larry King: Would you like to see the state to clamp down on it?

Gordon B. Hinckley: I think I leave that entirely in the hands of the civil officers. It's a civil offense. It's in violation of the law. We have nothing to do with it. We're totally distanced from it. And if the state chooses to move on it, that's a responsibility of civil officers.

Larry King: President Hinckley, when the press pays attention to it, it does affect you, certainly, in a public relations sense?

Gordon B. Hinckley: It does, because people mistakenly assume that this church has something to do with it. It has nothing whatever to do with it. It has had nothing to do with it for a very long time. It's outside the realm of our responsibility. These people are not members. Any man or woman who becomes involved in it is excommunicated from the church.

Larry King: Prosecutors in Utah are quoted as saying - they told "The Salt Lake Tribune" - that it's difficult to prosecute polygamists because of a lack of evidence; that ex-wives and daughters rarely complain about it. Do you see that as a problem?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Well, it's secretive. There's a certain element of secretiveness about it. I suppose they have some difficulty - they say they do, in gathering evidence.

Larry King: Should the church be more forceful in speaking out? I mean, you're forceful here tonight, but maybe - they've been saying that it's rather than just a state matter, encouraging the state to prosecute.

Gordon B. Hinckley: I don't know. We'll consider it.

Larry King: I'm giving you an idea.

Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes.

Larry King: Would you look better if you were...

Gordon B. Hinckley: I don't know that we would or not. As far as I'm concerned, I have nothing to do with it. It belongs to the civil officers of the state.

Larry King: You condemn it.

Gordon B. Hinckley: I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal. It is not legal. And this church takes the position that we will abide by the law. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law....

It is clear that Hinckley made several erroneous statements with regard to polygamy's history in the church even though he is obviously well versed in the real history.

There are many exposés of polygamy and Richard S. Van Wagoner, who wrote
Mormon Polygamy: A History, discusses the complete history of Mormon polygamy from its origins in the 1830s to the current day fundamentalists. The book lays to rest many of the false assumptions that are currently held by practicing Utah Mormons regarding the reasons for polygamy such as: there being an abundance of women who wouldn't otherwise be able to be married (due to the losses during the trek to Salt Lake City etc.), old women marrying into polygamy for financial support purposes, only the first wife having sexual relations with the husband, or the claim that such a small percentage practiced it. When President Hinckley claimed on Larry King Live that only "between two percent and five percent of our people were involved in it. It was a very limited practice," he followed the line of former President Joseph F. Smith who argued before Congressional hearings that only 3 percent were polygamous. In this they gave a less than honest picture for the only way to come up with these low numbers is to take only certain places at certain times and use adult polygamous males as the numerator and everyone - including children and polygamous wives - as the denominator. The fact is that among Church leadership plural marriage was normal and a very significant portion of adult females were polygamous. Likewise, a significant portion of children were born into polygamous families.

But this detracts from the real issue - polygamy goes against the will of God (as the Bible verses quoted earlier clearly show) and Joseph Smith clearly contradicted his own revelations. It is no surprise that most people reading D&C 132 and examining the historical evidence believe that, either the LDS should practice polygamy today, or Smith produced a revelation of convenience.

The evidence clearly shows that the statements found on the Mormon Church's official site are false since polygamy wasn't practiced only in
'the latter half of the 19th century' and it didn't end with Wilford Woodruff's declaration which, as we have previously highlighted, wasn't declared to be a 'revelation'!

The numerous post-Manifesto sanctioned marriages, the Smoot hearings, the resignations of members of the quorum of the 12, and the excommunication of John Taylor's son (who was an apostle) are all part of a sad and twisted story of continuing exploitation by corrupt men basing their ideology on the morals of a lying adulterer and false prophet. One of the more disturbing aspects of polygamy is the way in which the extensive documentation proves that the church leaders' followed the practice of
"lying for the Lord". In his book, Van Wagoner (Mormon Polygamy: A History) quotes a Mormon Church leader in Chapter 17 who wishes that "simple honesty" could be practiced rather than the tradition of "something higher than honesty" - which is simply an excuse for 'holy lying' and, in itself, a common trait of the cults.

Conclusion: we will happily address any continuing debate concerning the subjects dealt with above, but will not waste our time with any peripheral issues which you might introduce in order to try and deflect attention from the irrefutable points we have made.

In the Service of the Lord Jesus Christ

TCE


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23rd October, 2003

Andrew wrote again, making it appear that he had not received the material above and enclosing the (only slightly modified) 72 pages again (below we include a new final section which he had added).  Shame, again, about the foolish youthful boasting:

I take it that your lack of response to my 72 page (or so) counterarguments to those arguments you made against Mormonism, indicates that you concede my point. Wow, I won my first religious argument and I'm only 17. Well, just in case that's just wishful thinking, here it is again, enjoy…


17 Biblical Doctrines Sectarian Christians totally ignore.

-Good Works are necessary for Salvation. (Matt 5:16) (Matt 7:21-23)

(Matt 16:27) (John 3:21) (John 8:39) (Rom 2:13) (John 14:15)
(James 1:22) (James 2:14-17 & 26) (2 Cor 5:10) (Titus 3:8)
(2 Pet 1:5) (1 John 3:18) (Rev 22:14)
-There was a Pre-Existance. (Num 16:22) (Job 38:7) (Eccl 12:7) (Jer 1:5)
(Zech 12:1) (Acts 17:28) (Rom 8:29) (Eph 1:4) (Jude 1:6) (Rev 12:7-9)
-If the Book of Mormon is not true, there is another set of holy scriptures out there which is just as valuable as the bible. (Ps 85:11) (Isa 29:4 & 11)
(Ezek 37:19) (John 10:16)
-Baptism is necessary for Salvation. (Matt 3:15) (Matt 28:19) (Mark 16:16)
(John 3:5) (Acts 2:38) (Titus 3:5) (1 Pet 3:21)
-One can lose his salvation by disobedience and failure to repent. (Matt 10:22)
(1 Cor 9:27) (1 Cor 10:12) (Gal 5:4) (Heb 6:6) (Heb 10:26) (Heb 12:15)
(2 Pet 2:20)
-Baptism for the dead must be (or at least was) practiced. (1 Cor 15:29)
-The Organization of the primitive church. (Book of Acts)
-Females can not be pastors. (1 Cor 14:34) (1 Tim 2: 9-15)
-The Holy Priesthood authority must be maintained. (Matt 16:19) (Mark 3:14) (Luke 9:1) (Luke 10:1) (John 15:16) (Acts 6:6) (Titus 1:5) (Heb 5:4, Cross Reference Ex 28:4)
Jesus Christ and God the Father are two separate entities. (Luke 2:52)
(Luke 23:35) (John 5:18-20) (John 8:29) (John 10:15) (John 14:11) (Acts 7:55)
(Rom 8:29)
-There is a Plurality of Gods (1 Cor 8:5-6)
-There are three Glories/Kingdoms of Heaven. (1 Cor 15:39-42)
-Strong Drinks (Liquor) Must be avoided accept when needed for health or sacramental purposes. (Lev 10:9) (Judge 13:4) (13:14) (Num 6:3) (Prov 3:8) (Prov 20:1) (Prov 23:21) (Eccl 10:17) (Isa 5:22) (Isa 24:9) (1 Tim 5:23)
-Plural Marriage is, at times, not sinful. (Gen 16:1-11) (Gen 25:1) (Gen 29:28) (Gen 30:4-26) (Ex 21:10) (Deut 21:15-16) (2 Sam 2:2) (2 Sam 5:13)
(2 Sam 12:7-9)
-One should ask God what is right and wrong. (Matt 7:7-8) (James 1:5)
-Men can become Gods (Ps 16:11) (Matt 25:34) (Rom 8:17) (Philip 2:9)
(2 Tim 4:8) (James 1:12) (1 Pet 5:4) (Rev 3:21) (Rev 21:7)
-God the Father had a father. (Rev 1:6)

My Testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints.

I was reading what Matthew Slick of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry once said about the Book of Abraham and how Mormons will not trust Historical, or scientific evidence. Instead we will trust our own testimony that the church is true. If I had been in the room when he wrote that statement, I would have shook his hand, for not a more truthful thing was ever said about our church.

He is correct, we do rely more upon our own testimony then evidence, but that is what faith is. The Apostle Paul Taught, "Faith is the Substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1). If any church rests itself purely upon scientific fact, I tell you it is a false church, for God does not reveal everything pertaining to the Kingdom of Heaven, so that we would believe in him by faith, and put our trust in his holy spirit, and not what humanly logic and science tells us. Those who administer the Christian Apologetics and research ministry, by relying upon scientific fact, have just proven unto God one thing, their own unfaithfulness.
Anti-Mormons are right, it is far fetched that this church would be true. Personally, at times it becomes really hard to remain faithful when all my logic tells me that there is no possible way that what I believe in is right, but the simple fact that my logic, and everyone else's logic tells me that this church can not be true, is the same reason why I know it is true, because we Latter-day Saints are seeing with our hearts, not with our eyes.

We are allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us, not humanly logic, and humanly interpretations of the bible. Any church that does not require its members to see with a faithful heart, as opposed to their eyes, can not be a true church. Yet this paper proves, that despite the evidence being stacked against us, this church can be defended. The evidence against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is false.

Thus I announce my testimony of the true and living Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter-days. And announce my intentions to continue to defend the faith, even as I have. It matters not what my friends, family, or enemies may say. This church is true, and even if my home and the world over becomes filled with all the lies and falsities of Sectarian evangelism, I will continue to practice the commandment which Christ gave his disciples as he ascended to heaven, to teach all nations the truth of the everlasting gospel. Thus shall I and all other Latter-day Saints who do the same, have the promised blessing which Christ gave his disciples as he ascended. "And Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world, Amen." (Matthew 28:20)

I give personal testimony that I know these things are true, and that this Gospel was restored by the prophet, Joseph Smith. I do not believe in this, I know it. And bear testimony of it, in the name of the Only Begotten Son of God, even Jesus Christ, Amen.

Bibliography

"An Overview of Church History and the Danites in Missouri," LDS frequently asked
questions, December 10, 2002, Accessed online at, http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml, Date visited, May 26, 2003
"Any Questions," The Freemasonry Network, Accessed online at
http://www.freemasonry.net/YourQuestionsAnswered.asp, Date visited, May 26, 2003
The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ, 1981,
Intellectual Reserve Inc. Salt Lake City Utah.
Brison Woody, "Did Joseph Smith Die as a Martyr?" LDS.NET, accessed online at http://mail.lds.net/pages/wwbrison/jsmartyr.htm, Date visited, May 26, 2003
Brison Woody, "The Character of Joseph Smith," LDS. NET, accessed online at
http://mail.lds.net/pages/wwbrison/jschar.htm, Date visited, May 26, 2003
"Cults, The Mormons, What do Mormons Believe?" The Christian Expositor, January
28th, 2003, Accessed online at http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page60.html,
Date visited, May 26, 2003.
"Cults, The Mormons, What are the Claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints?" The Christian Expositor, January 28th, 2003. Accessed online at http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page56.html, Date visited, May 26, 2003.
David, James "Nauvoo Charter," A Close Look at Mormonism, September 21st 1997,
Accessed online at http://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/nauvchar.htm. Date visited, May 26, 2003
The Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1981,
Intellectual Reserve Inc. Salt Lake City Utah.
Durham, Reed C. Jr. "Nauvoo Expositor,"
Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Volume One. 1992, Macmillan Publishing Company. Accessed online at http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/1831_1844/nauvoo_expositor _eom.htm. Date visited, May 26, 2003
Elsplin, Ronald K, and Turley, Richard E. "Mountain Meadows Massacre."
Encyclopedia
of Mormonism Volume Two. 1992, Macmillan Publishing Company, Accessed online at http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/history/Mountain_Meadows_EOM.htm
Date visited, May 26, 2002.
Gospel Principles, 1997, Intellectual Reserve Inc. Salt Lake City Utah.
The Holy Bible: Old and New Testaments, King James Version, 1979,
Intellectual Reserve Inc. Salt Lake City Utah.
McConkie, Bruce R.
Mormon Doctrine: Second Edition, 1966, Deseret Book Company,
Salt Lake City Utah.
Our Herritage: A Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1996,
Intellectual Reserve Inc. Salt Lake City Utah.
The Pearl of Great Price, 1981, Intellectual Reserve Inc. Salt Lake City Utah.
Slick, Matthew J, "The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith," The Christian
Apologetics and Research Ministry, 2002. Accessed online at, http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm. Date visited, May 26, 2003.
Slick Matthew J, "Is Mormonism Christian?" The Christian Apologetics and Research
Ministry, 2002. Accessed online at, http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_christian.htm.
Date visited, May 26, 2003.
Slick, Matthew J, "Mormonism and the Negro," The Christian Apologetics, and Research
Ministry, 2002. Accessed online at, http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_negro.htm.
Date visited, May 26, 2003.
Slick Matthew J, "Some of the Many Changes in the Book of Mormon," The Christian

Apologetics and Research Ministry, 2002. Accessed online at, http://www.carm.org/lds/bom_changes.htm. Date visited, May 26, 2002.


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24th October, 2003

Dear
Andrew

on the 8th October we posted our 63 A4-page response to your '72 page (or so) counterarguments' [equivalent to '21 pages of A4']

Our response appeared on your computer on the 9th October and we received a clear receipt acknowledgement.

How many people share your computer? If you didn't read it, perhaps someone else sharing your computer objected to our reply and removed it [the surname 'miller' features in the e-mail address, but not even 'a' for 'andrew'!]. Regardless, we will send it again after this mail.

We hope you will take our reply seriously and note the reasons and conditions detailed in our response.

Praying for you in the Name of Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour

TCE


*****************************************************
Alas, we heard nothing more from Andrew - but if any LDS believer is convinced that he made any points we cannot refute we will certainly consider further meaningful discussion in the light of true Scripture, ref. 2 Timothy 2v23-26; Titus 3v9-11

Topics Discussed on pages responding to Mormonism:

Book of Mormon versus The Bible

Doctrinal Errors Resulting

Polygamy

Grace versus Works

Baptism as 'Work'

Justification by Faith Alone?

Another Christ?

Just 'Believe'?

Possessions Hinder

Faith without Works is Dead?

Salvation a Gift - not by Works!

Saved at the point of Faith!

Water Baptism-Spiritual Baptism

The Mormon Christ

Blood Atonement

Sons of (which) god-'Adam-god'?

Universal Salvation!


Mormon 'Second Chance Theology'!

You Must Be Born Again - Again?!

God vs 'council of gods on Kolob'

Polygamy - 'restoring' an error!

Mormon 'god' can only organise!

Mormon evil vs Biblical view

Tests for a 'prophet'

Mormon 'testimony' vs Facts

Compare 'testimonies'?!

Smith's Occult Activity

'Familiar Spirit' of Mormonism

My Opinion versus Your Opinion?

A Counterfeit Spirit

Wicca, 'Folk Magic' & Mormonism

LDS attack Old Testament

Jeremiah 36 exposes LDS claims

Anachronism exposing BOM

'Gilgamish Epic' vs Noah

Noah's Ark vs BOM vessels!

Polygamy - no excuse for Smith!

Confusion of Mormonism

Mormon invention when challenged

Mormon bluster when caught out!

Problem with experiential belief!

Problem with no absolutes!

Truth is as each perceives it?

Wicca & Karma & Reincarnation

'Isms' usurp God's Word

Failings of the Mormon 'gospel'

A Better Way - the True Christ!

There are errors in the Bible!

Know the reality of eternity in heaven by believing on Jesus Christ as your Lord & Saviour!

Go to the following link to discover eternal life is
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