(Continued from page 418)Details about Jesus unimportant!
You write: On Christ at home: I come from a family of tolerance (No fanaticism in general). One major topic is Christ (PBUH). I know what Christ taught and we, as Muslims, must acknowledge and LOVE him for what he brought to this world (If only the Jews would accept him as the Messiah). If a Muslim refuses to speak of Christ or speaks ill of him (God forbid), there is no place for such person in God's kingdom since belief in Christ, his birth and his ascension is a part of Islam. I think the easiest things to mislead people are the MANY details in religion which put us at odds. Some are significant while others are not eternal-life threatening. I look forward to the day when the record will be made clear.
TCE: You claim to know what Christ taught but, if you continue to accept the Qur'anic view of Him, you will remain in ignorance of His true claims and attributes and be left with a severely inadequate - and soul destroying - view of His nature and purpose in coming to earth. It is one thing to say you love Him, yet the insulting Islamic view actually rejects the truth about him and proposes an altogether inferior nature and ministry for the Son of God. If your life merited an award in the Queen's Honour List and you consequently met the Queen of England and insisted on calling her Mrs Royal do you think she would be pleased or angry? And do you think you would deserve reward or punishment for your insolence? If you wait until after you die to find out whether 'the record' is clear it will be too late for you for, after death, comes the judgement (Hebrews 9:27-28):
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
The facts about Christ we have presented to you are not insignificant but 'eternal-life threatening' and, if you cling to the teachings of Islam, you continue to put yourself outside of this offer by Christ - 'to bear the sins of many' (Hebrews 9:28) and He will disown you at the judgement.
Rami, if we did not insist on telling you this we would not be showing love but hatred towards you and be guilty of the sin described through the 'Watchman Prophet' Ezekiel in Ezekiel 3:17-21:
17 'Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. 20 'Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself.'
And similarly (Ezekiel 18:5-32):
5 'Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right. 6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife or lie with a woman during her period. 7 He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked. 8 He does not lend at usury or take excessive interest. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between man and man. 9 He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD . 10 'Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things 11 (though the father has done none of them): 'He eats at the mountain shrines. He defiles his neighbor's wife. 12 He oppresses the poor and needy. He commits robbery. He does not return what he took in pledge. He looks to the idols. He does detestable things. 13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head. 14 'But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things: 15 'He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife. 16 He does not oppress anyone or require a pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked. 17 He withholds his hand from sin and takes no usury or excessive interest. He keeps my laws and follows my decrees. He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people. 19 'Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. 21 'But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD . Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? 24 'But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. 25 'Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 30 'Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD . Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD . Repent and live!
You may consider yourself safe because you have not committed these sins - although the list is not exhaustive. But all Muslims are guilty of the most heinous of these sins listed here, for anyone following the Qur'an is worshipping (Ezekiel 18:6) 'at the mountain shrines' and 'look[ing] to ... idols.' While you continue in your criticism of Jews you completely overlook the fact that Allah is merely the word used of the pagan god(s) worshipped by the Quraysh tribe of Muhammad in his day, and prior to his revelations which produced the Qur'an! Careful research of the origins of Islam reveals that Muhammad merely made cosmetic adjustments to the beliefs already held. This is why the black meteor stone remains as a place of worship for Muslims in Mecca. Why do you think kissing a pagan stone is any different from worshipping at a pagan mountain shrine in idol worship? Anyone following those teachings is no better or worse than the Papal Roman Catholics who kiss statues of Mary or kiss the Pope's foot! This is idolatry of the lowest form and Karen Armstrong merely escaped from this to continue her downwards spiral into spiritual eclecticism of the soul-destroying kind. This is the tragic view Armstrong expressed in her PBS interview:
ARMSTRONG: ... Islam is a religion of success. Unlike Christianity, which has as its main image, in the west at least, a man dying in a devastating, disgraceful, helpless death.
MOYERS: On a cross, crucified.
ARMSTRONG: The cross, crucified, and that turned into victory. Mohammed was not an apparent failure. He was a dazzling success, politically as well as spiritually, and Islam went from strength to strength to strength. But against the West, it's been able to make no headway, and this is as disturbing for Muslims as the discoveries of Darwin have been to some Christians. The Quran says that if you live according to the Quranic ideal, implementing justice in your society, then your society will prosper, because this is the way human beings are supposed to live. But whatever they do, they cannot seem to get Muslim history back on track, and this has led some, and only a minority, it must be said, to desperate conclusions.
MOYERS: Where are you in your own journey? You're not a practicing Catholic, are you?
ARMSTRONG: No. I usually call myself these days a freelance monotheist. I draw nourishment from all three of the religions of Abraham, uh, I spend my life studying these faiths, in a sense I'm still a nun. I live alone, and I've never married, and I spend my life writing and talking and reading and studying spirituality and God. And I can not see in essence any one of these three faiths as superior to any of the others. I suppose one of my hopes in life is to try to get Jews, Christians and Muslims to realize the profound unanimity, the unanimous vision that they share, and to join hands together to stop the kind of cruelty, violence and obscenity, moral obscenity that we saw on September the 11th.
TCE: The whole of this interview is a reflection of the inaccurate views she holds, and this kind of spiritual influence can do nothing but harm to anyone reading and believing that she is speaking any kind of worthwhile truth.
Rami, we have given a reasonable answer to every question you have raised and find you continue to follow the Muslim tradition of ignoring the evidence against Muhammad and his Qur'an while pointing the finger at others, such as the Jews. Please wake up before the gates of Hell embrace you and you find yourself separated from Abraham's bosom and suffering torments for eternity alongside 'the Rich man' (Luke 16:19-31) in Hades.
We continue to pray for you and your family.
Love in Christ Jesus
14th April, 2004 - Rami replies:
Thanks for the LONG response. I apologize it has taken me a LONG time to reply. I don't want to type another several pages at this time but would like to briefly ask what is it that makes Islam so evil in the eyes of Christians? Whether we are Christian or Jewish or Muslim, our Crusade-like approach in words and deeds will lead us all to hell no doubt. When the Quran mentions unbelivers and killing them, it is NOT referring to all Christians or Jews. Once again, a typical Christian "scholar" cherry picking the verses from the Qur'an to defend their stance. I will tell you that Jesus too speaks of violence and swords because as much as there is love in God, there is equally anger towards mankind. So when Islam speaks of violence, it is not uncommon or unjustified. You've obviously read the old testament and there is quite a great deal of violence there as well. It would be better to say that you do not believe in Islam because Muhammad came after Christ Jesus (PBUH). I will tell you that Christ is revered in the Qur'an as Jesus said the one to follow him would do. But again, we will agree to disagree.*****************************************************
Do you believe in the trinity? If so, I have sad news regarding this misconception: http://www.ynca.com/Mini%20Studies/truth_about_the_trinity.htm
Furthermore, find me ONE place in the bible where TRINITY is mentioned. Just one.
Let's put aside your historical findings for now and look at the Qur'anic verses regarding science the universe and how only modern findings could reveal their truth…
"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (The Qur'an, 51:47)
"... He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in a threefold darkness. That is God, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you deviate?" (The Qur'an, 39:6)
"(We) then formed the drop into a clot and formed the clot into a lump and formed the lump into bones and clothed the bones in flesh; and then brought him into being as another creature. Blessed be God, the Best of Creators!" (The Qur'an, 23:14)
"He has created both sexes, male and female from a drop of semen which has been ejected." (The Qur'an, 53:45-46)
"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things." (The Qur'an, 2:29)
"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (The Qur'an, 21:30)
These are just a few glorious words of specifics that nobody could possibly know at the time. Are these just fabrications but a desert dweller?
I think you should be more open minded to the possibility that Islam is not as evil as you depicted it. Why don't you sincerely read it in its entirety and then make a fair assessment even if you ultimately disagree? I only say this because ignorance is not bliss. The Jews reject Christ. Is it at all possible that the Christians are now rejecting something they should embrace.
Always a pleasure hearing from you.
24th May, 2004 - TCE replies:
Dear Rami'The Trinity' cultic revisitation
Thank you for taking the time to contact us again.
The time you take, or the amount you write, is never a problem to us but you clearly fail to take much note of what we have written to you. This is shown by the fact that you continue to ask questions regarding the 'Trinity' in essentially the same way as you did back in October, 2003.
If you are going to question our explanation of what the 'Trinitarian' doctrine ('Triunitarian' to be precise) means and how it came about then please do so in specific manner and not by referring to other web-sites.
What makes Islam so evil?
You write: Do you believe in the trinity? If so, I have sad news regarding this misconception: http://www.ynca.com/Mini%20Studies/truth_about_the_trinity.htm
TCE: we carefully pointed out the way in which Ahmed Deedat tried to use material gleaned from the Jehovah's Witnesses cult to attack the 'Trinity' and the deity of Christ. Why, after we assiduously destroyed this pitiful attack through Scripture, facts, and logic, do you think quoting from the web-page of another cult - The Church of God, 7th Day (by their own admission 'a Sabbath-keeping group, which came out of the Millerite movement of 1844, as did the 7th Day Adventists') - will get you anywhere?
In the same way you try and use an 'argument' that has already been refuted when you ask: 'Furthermore, find me ONE place in the bible where TRINITY is mentioned. Just one.'
As we clearly explained on a page already constructed, we do not need to find the actual word 'Trinity' in the Bible to prove the truth of the doctrine! Do Jehovah's Witnesses need to find the word 'theocracy' in the Bible to prove a doctrine they believe in which is indefensible in the form they try to present as truth? Don't Muslims need to find the term for God's unity (tawhid) in the Qur'an in order to believe in the concept of Allah's unity - which they claim is taught there - although this word never appears in the Qur'an?!
You write: '[I] would like to briefly ask what is it that makes Islam so evil in the eyes of Christians?'
TCE: we have already supplied plenty of details of the vast difference between Christianity and Islam so, to summarise our answer very briefly:
Islam was only relatively loving and tolerant when it was weak during the Meccan period but, once Muhammad immigrated to Medina and gathered a larger following so that he became militarily strong, tolerance was replaced by fanaticism. It was then that the older verses preaching tolerance in the Qur'an were replaced by the verses speaking of the sword and violence:
"... kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out..." (Sura 2:191).
Make ready against them all the power you can [gather], including steeds of war, to strike terror into [the hearts of] the enemies of Allah and your enemies (Sura 8:60).
'So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush' (Sura 9:5).
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Sura 5:33-34).
Islam's prophet engaged in a campaign of genocide against the Jews once his army grew and, following Muhammad's death, first caliph Abu Bakr, followed the example he had been set - using the above verses as the basis for using the sword to bring the tribes that had abandoned Islam back into the fold. Second caliph, Omar Ibn Al Khattab, ensured non-Muslims were treated as second-class citizens, taxing them severely, forcing Christians to cut their hair, and outlawing the ringing of church bells.
Unlike Christianity, which grew through Christ's wonderful teachings of love, peace, and good neighbourliness ("But I tell you, don't resist an evildoer. On the contrary, if anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also" (Matt. 5:39), Islam grew through the sword and bloodshed. Muslims reading words like this from Jesus claim that a prophet of Allah would never have expressed such weakness - and certainly never have allowed himself to go to a shameful criminal's death on a cross! Thus they totally miss the whole thrust of the Gospel message by refusing to accept the historical Jesus (much as you have done) and thus refuse to accept Him as propitiation (atonement) for their sins.
(Continued on page 420)